My One-Time Rebuttal to My “Deserved Rape” Article: Idealism vs. Reality

By ataylor on Oct 30, 2008 in College, Common Sense, Featured, Uncategorized

(Note: The views and opinions expressed in this article do not necessarily reflect those of EMQTV, its affiliates, or its networks. They are the sole thoughts of its author, Aaron P. Taylor, who is more than happy to take credit for them…)

Man, oh man, where do I begin…

On Saturday, I typed up an article for EMQTV.com called “Advice 4 Women: How to NOT Get a ‘Deserved’ Raping.” I wrote the article after an incident involving me and a woman at a club who repeatedly wanted to dance with me – and only me – several times throughout the night.

For those who may not have read the article (though by now I’d be surprised if you haven’t), the girl got more and more touchy-feely each time we danced, to the point where both me, along with the friends I’d gone to the club with that night (both male AND female), thought this girl REALLY wanted to jump my bones.

But it was not to be: after several hot & heavy dances, I went in for a kiss, and she turned her cheek, giving me the line, “I wouldn’t do that if I were you.”

Me and my friends (again, girls included) were shocked – not because she rejected me (that happens all the time at the club), but because she had been giving me signals all night (not just based on the dancing, though the fact that I was the only guy she was dancing with certainly didn’t help) that, even if she didn’t want to sleep with me, she’d at least be up for a make-out session.

In my frustration at this… since I’m a writer, I’m always thinking about different subjects for articles I can write about. And, as weird as it may sound, when that incident happened, the first two things I thought about was:

(a) how this wasn’t the first girl that’s teased me – or any guy, for that matter – with the intent of “taking things further,” yet not REALLY being up for it; and
(b) that this sort of thing can be DANGEROUS when done to the wrong guy, and that women would benefit from knowing that.

So, I wrote my blog, posted it on the site, then went home for 2 days to help my Mom move.

Imagine my surprise when, upon finally getting to check my E-mails, I find a note from one of the site creators saying simply: “Have you read the comments on your article?”

And man, oh man, have I read them. Perhaps you’d like to be privy to some of the comments I’ve received about the article? Here’s a small sampling from the ever-growing list of responses:

“Here, Aaron, let me help make things much simpler for you: Instead of assuming that any girl who dances with you or flirts with you is clearly after your penis, try assuming the opposite. Because, while it is technically possible that there is a woman, somewhere, who is interested in sleeping with a whining little brat like you, it’s statistically unlikely that you will ever encounter her. Since you’re either so infantile or so stupid that you can’t grasp the concept of ASKING A WOMAN IF SHE WANTS TO SLEEP WITH YOU, you’re clearly either too young or too stupid to be having sex in the first place. Do the human race a favor and go wank alone in your room.”

And another:

“Wow. You’re a totally worthless shit.”

And another:

“You are a pathetic excuse for a man; you are nothing but a rape apologist and a whiny, selfish baby.”

And another:

“Kill yourself, you disgusting rape apologist.”

And yet another:

To Mr. Aaron P. Taylor:
We are sorry to inform you that your services as a human being are no longer required. Please gather your belongings and exit the species at once. Do not use us for a reference.

Sincerely,
The Human Race

Wow… all of this simply because I had an opinion on a touchy subject that was different from other people?

For me, I’ve always been a person who had no problem sitting down with others and having a civilized discussion about heavy topics. Me and my friends in college used to have all-night sessions where we’d bring up an issue, and then discuss our viewpoints on it. We may not have always agreed with what a person said, but we at least understood that everyone was entitled to their own opinion.

However, I don’t believe we ever interjected the words “kill yourself” when we didn’t agree with what the other person said, or said “that opinion sucks – what a worthless piece of shit you are!”

Then again, maybe I’m just more civilized than I’m being given credit for.

To be fair – to me – there WERE people who understood what I was saying in the article. Here are some of those examples:

“It took courage to write this entry. Any time a man objects to the overt and manipulative teasing of a woman he is condemned for being “beastly” (in the UK) or “a pig” here in the U.S. And to frame it in terms of the #1 hot-button topic of RAPE is especially ballsy. You are sure to get plenty of attention for this post.”

And another:

“What Aaron is talking about here is that doing this sort of thing is (not only an incredibly cruel way to stroke your own ego but) dangerous! And that’s not letting the r@pist off the hook! You never know when the guy you’re teasing in this fashion is unstable. I read that up to 5% of the population have undiagnosed mental disorders. To make another example, I am white and would not walk down an all-black neighborhood with a “I hate n*ggers” tee shirt with $100 hanging out of my wallet.”

And another:

“It’s easy to say “keep it in your pants”. thing is, the natural reaction caused by a woman rubbing herself on our crotch in some way is NOT something men can flick ON and OFF like a light switch. the body reacts on its own and it builds up until there’s some sort of release. we KNOW it’s building up and we ALSO know that we can’t just turn it off. people call this “sexual frustration”. guys and men have a varying ability to control that build-up. most men deal with it well enough (our writer here being a good example). for the minority that has below-average control, well, it takes one tease too many to ruin two people’s lives (yes, amazingly enough, men do feel).”

I could literally go on re-posting comments all day long from both sides. The point is, the subject has touched off a discussion about this issue (which is good), but also painted me, to some, as a person in favor of rape (which is not so good).

I wasn’t going to even do a rebuttal to this post… but then I found out that other blog sites have been re-posting this article and saying negative things about me personally. (To read some of these sites, you can click http://news.mensactivism.org/node/10802, or http://tigerbeatdown.blogspot.com/2008/10/andrew-p-taylor-did-not-rape-you-he.html [this one is pretty sarcastic, but kinda funny].)

After reading the comments on here, I sent the article to a few of my friends. One of my female friends was not very happy about it (to say the least), and wrote me back saying so. I wrote her back, and figured what I sent her would make a pretty good rebuttal to my original article.

In short: you should know that I hold women in high regard. I was raised by a single mom (minus the 9 years my dad was here prior to his death) and raised by a litany of aunts, grandmothers, and friends of my Mom, most of whom were – you guessed it – women as well.

At the same time, you should also know that I’m a believer in taking responsibility for one’s actions when something goes good OR bad. I was taught that there are two sides to every story, and that even if you think something happened to you that is someone else’s fault, it’s always a good idea to look at your own behavior/actions and see what part you may have played in it.

The reason I wrote the article is because I felt women needed to know it’s not always a good idea to do certain things around certain guys because they can get hurt. I’ve had so many women over the years tell me how much they enjoy “going to the club just to tease guys.”

And you may or may not agree with the next statement, but doing that sort of thing can be dangerous. Not everyone is patient or understanding when it comes to reading signals or figuring out when a girl is just “playing around” and dealing with it in a respectable manner.

The reality of the situation is, NO GIRL DESERVES TO BE RAPED. I even state that in the article (though I think some people may have just read the title and commented on the article without actually READING it).

I also think no guy should rape a girl under any circumstance. If a girl is teasing him to the point where he thinks he’s about to get some action and she decides not to, he SHOULD be able to walk away.

Read: SHOULD be able to walk away.

However, we don’t live in an idealized world; we live in reality. And reality has shown time and time again that NOT ALL MEN ARE SMART ENOUGH TO WALK AWAY. Some guys will, in fact, take what they want. And women need to be aware of that, and need to be mindful of doing things that will make the wrong man aroused enough to the point of wanting to rape her.

And, just to be clear (because I hate being misinterpreted), I’m not saying that women need to revert back to a time where they had to stay inside, or dress up showing nothing but their eyes, or stop walking down the street lest some guy from afar get aroused, jump her, rape her, then scream in court, “But it’s her fault – she was walking down the street all seductive-like!”

What I’m saying is, women need to stop always playing the victim role – i.e. the “OMG, I was doing absolutely NOTHING to bring this incident upon me“ role – and start taking responsibility for their actions, actions that can – sometimes – contribute to a guy wanting to sex her without her consent.

In the case of the girl in my story: had she danced with a different guy – one who may have been high, drunk, on pills, or just really, REALLY lonely – and grinded on his crotch on and off and on and off for 2 hours, and felt on his chest and rubbed her face all over his face (which, in my opinion, takes what we were doing beyond the realm of “just dancing“ and into the realm of “I‘m trying to hit on this guy“ – don‘t act like you don‘t know what signals give off which intentions, ladies) … and then pulled the “oh, I wouldn’t do that if I were you” crap after giving him all the buying signals…

The reality is, HER NIGHT COULD HAVE ENDED DIFFERENTLY.

That’s not me having a sick mind; that’s me being able to place myself in the mindset of another guy whose ideals are different than mine. And it’s not a justification of rape; it’s simply a statement of how things really are, and how they DO happen.

I’m pretty sure there are a few people out there that are STILL not going to get it. And that’s fine. But perhaps some more analogies are in order. Yes, I know my last one involving women and shopping probably came off as sexist and – according to a few of you – a show of my “complete devaluation of women as a whole.” So, here are a few non-gender specific analogies:

HOPEFULLY BETTER ANALOGY #1:

No one deserves to get lung cancer. Some people get lung cancer as a result of an inherited family gene, and it’s not their fault. And it’s sad and tragic, because they really didn’t do anything to bring it upon themselves.

You know who else has a chance of getting lung cancer? Smokers.

Now, in the same way that not every girl who teases guys for fun is going to get raped, not every person who smokes is going to catch lung cancer. However, there ARE smokers who catch lung cancer, just like there are women who get raped after purposefully teasing guys over and over, and eventually teasing the WRONG guy.

In both cases, the aftermath is tragic: cancer is a terrible thing to deal with, just like the after-effects of rape. But no one would dare argue that the smoker actions weren’t partially responsible for such a tragic thing happening.

Yet, somehow it’s unimaginable to believe that the woman’s actions didn’t play a part in her tragedy as well?

HOPEFULLY BETTER ANALOGY #2:

When I first moved to D.C., I didn’t have a place to live. About 3 days in, I was getting desperate, and didn’t care WHERE I lived, so long as I was able to find a place.

One of the places I looked at was a studio apartment in the south-east area of D.C. The apartment itself was very nice – it had its own kitchen, a bathroom, and a living area that was bigger than the place I stayed at in Atlanta. And the rent – $650 a month – was more than affordable.

The only problem: it was in one of the WORST AREAS IN D.C. in terms of crime and murders. Everyone I told about the place begged me not to live there. And so, I decided not to take the place.

Now, had I moved into the area and got robbed or killed 5 days later, everyone in my friend circle – not to mention the people seeing the news report about the incident – would have agreed that it was a terrible thing that happened to me.

At the same time, though, they would not have been surprised. Why? Because they would have already known that something like that could happen to me in that part of town. I would have been tempting fate by deciding to live there, and – while not everyone who lives in that part of town gets killed there – the fact that there was a high risk for it would have made living there a stupid decision on my part.

In the same way, it’s stupid for any woman to believe that she can go through life teasing guy after guy after guy after guy, and not think that at least ONE of them might take what she thinks is a “joking” lil’ tease routine too seriously, to the point where he thinks she’s still “joking” when she says she really doesn’t want sex. If you’re constantly putting yourself in positions or situations where there’s a possibility of something like that happening, it’s only a matter of time before it might eventually happen.

Tragic? Yes. Shocking? Not so much.

—-

Lastly, to all the rape victims who have commented on the article and verbally bashed me for being insensitive to what they went through: please take heed that I am NOT doing that. I am fully aware that there are women (and men – nobody ever brings up the fact that men get raped, too) out there who get raped and didn’t wear a skimpy outfit, or tease a guy, or give a guy any impression that she wanted to have sex with him.

What the article was simply saying was, there are women out there who ARE doing those things PURPOSEFULLY, and, while they, too, don’t deserved to get raped, they DO need to be aware of how their actions can play a part in it happening.

But maybe everybody who disagreed with me is right. Maybe I’m giving women too much credit.

Maybe I’m wrong for thinking that a woman might actually be SMART and INTELLIGENT enough to take responsibility for her actions, or realize that, while men SHOULD be smart enough back off when she says no, not all men are going to do so after she’s been giving them signals all night that indicate she’ll kiss or have sex with them.

Maybe, instead, I should do what one of the commenter’s suggested, and exit the species. Maybe I should look for a species that has an opposing gender that doesn’t put 100% blame towards a man when something goes wrong. Maybe – just maybe – this new species’ opposing gender will have the BRAINS I thought the girls on this planet had, ones that will allow them to think:

“Gee, my actions might actually play a part in me getting hurt – perhaps I should avoid doing such things.”

On second thought, I think I’ll stay here. Who knows, I might actually find some women who still believe in self-responsibility! Hopefully that’s not just me being too “ideal” in my thinking

-Aaron P. Taylor

P.S. By the way, shame on those of you who thought I was pro-rape. What kind of sick, twisted thoughts are going through YOUR head?

38 Comment(s)

To be honest here, I had a better impression of you before reading your rebuttal. This “rebuttal,” to me, just came across as more of the same, more of what you originally posted, and whining about why people didn’t understand you – not clarification.

The main issue I took with many of the examples used on the main article is that they reinforced stereotypes or the worst kind. The examples portrayed women as clothes, or as meat, and men as animals. Humans have the ability to reason and have consciences which give them a sense of right and wrong. Lions don’t. Humans have the ability to reason that while a steak might taste good, mauling the person holding it because the person waved it in your face is not okay or appropriate. Lions don’t. (That doesn’t touch on the fact that women are not steaks, and do have a say in the outcome of such situations.)

You gave an example of an advertised sale, and asked about the response if, upon arrival, prices had been marked up instead of down. However, the situation you’re talking about here seems to me to be more like an ad depicting seasonal items (Christmas clothes perhaps, or coats) with certain language describing them as seasonal – maybe even saying at seasonal prices. The ad might mention special Christmas prices. If I assumed that that meant the items were on sale or marked down 50% and then showed up only to find the opposite was true, I would be disappointed, yes. I might feel the ad had been teasing or misleading, yes. But I would not feel justified to being able to simply take those clothes.

This is close to what you’re describing. At no point did the woman in question say she wanted to have sex with you. At no point did she say she wanted to go home with you or take you home. At no point did she even, truly, hint at these things – she did not give you directions to your house, suggest getting a hotel room, or anything of that sort. It was not so much false advertising as, in your opinion, misleading advertising. The problem is that you interpreted her actions to mean she wanted sex, but many people, at least from the comments, did not. As it was not clearly stated either way, you have a miscommunication. That does not make her a tease – and it certainly does not guarantee you sex, or make it okay for you to take the sex which you thought she was offering, though she did not explicitly state that.

Some studies have shown that rape, especially certain types of rape, occur more often when drugs or alcohol are involved. Knowing this, it doesn’t hurt for women to be careful in such situations – not to avoid them completely, but to be aware of their surroundings, watch their drinks, not leave alone or walk to their car alone, etc. That is general advice I would give to any person, male or female, going to a nightclub or bar.

However, rape is about power. Yes, it is frustrating to get your expectations up only to find that the other person had completely different ideas than you. Yes, some women dress more sexually than others. But to be honest, part of an adult is learning that miscommunications happen, learning that things aren’t always what you expect, and learning to move forward. To draw another example, if I taunted and teased another person all night, in the person’s face, calling the person all kinds of mean names, talking about the person’s family, etc, that person might assume I was trying to fight. If the person then made a comment about taking it outside to fight and I declined, would it be okay for the person to shoot me anyway? That may not be the best example (though at least it refers to men as more than animals incapable of controlling their own bodies and women as more than items). My point is that yes, teasing hurts, having your expectations let down hurts and miscommunications aren’t always pleasant. But reacting with rape or something else of that nature is grossly inappropriate to the injustice done.

And let’s face it, men, controlling any and all physical side effects of being turned on by a party unwilling to have sex is easily taken care of. It may not be as fun as sex and it may not be the most exciting thing, but it’s something men are very capable of doing. That’s another thing that differentiates men from lions.

Aaron, there were parts of your piece that seemed to say that these actions are frustrating, and that such situations can increase the likelihood of a bad ending. There were other parts that seemed to say that women didn’t deserve rape but needed to stop asking for it, and to be honest I felt there were more responses like that in your rebuttal. I’m still not entirely clear which way you meant this to come off (like I said, your rebuttal seemed less clarification and more whiny “why won’t you listen to me”). Even if a woman dresses provocatively and dances with a man, she has not consented to sex. Does a lap dance at a strip club mean the stripper is asking for sex and/or rape? Even if a woman makes out with you, again, it does not mean she has consented to sex. This is because women have a say in what happens between the two of you as well. If you are concerned about miscommunications, then ask the woman before it goes that far. Ask her if she shares your assumptions – because again, in your example, that’s all it was, assumptions.

Some of the responses defending Aaron seemed to be bothered over “teases” and such. (There did seem to be a few guilty parties seeking to defend their actions… which is disturbing in its own right, but then what criminal doesn’t look for a way to deny blame?) However, many guys seemed to agree that they did not like being teased, did not like girls who would engage in acts that they assumed meant sex, only to find out the girl did not want sex. This is a separate issue from rape. If you are bothered by the difference in assumptions, then discuss that. But do not add on that your assumptions, or any guy’s assumptions, might lead to the guy taking what he wants. You may have only the best of intentions – you may truly mean that an unstable guy may assume something and use it to rape. But saying that a difference in assumptions will lead to rape is very very close to saying the girl asked for it, deserved it, or is to blame. Such things are touchy subjects for a reason – many people of both genders have been raped or know someone who has, and often the victim is blamed by some (especially with date rape or the types discussed here). If you are frustrated with girls acting a certain way to get validation, then say so. But don’t associate it with something like rape. I get frustrated very often with drivers on the road who don’t use signals before attempting to merge into my car, or who cut me off, etc. I get VERY frustrated with these drivers, and yes, they make me angry. I can see how a less stable person with a weapon might engage in what’s been dubbed “road rage.” But really, my issue is with the behavior I find infuriating. Discussing that behavior without automatically linking it to rape might be one way not to get such hateful comments.

Ultimately, Aaron, I was not impressed by your original post or your reply. It did come across as childish, because as has been posted, you are responsible for your actions and your assumptions as well. If you assume something but are not correct in that assumption, you can also control that dissapointment. Discuss that disappointment all you want, please. Discuss why and how the miscommunication occurred in the first place. But if that’s what you’re going to discuss, then don’t automatically link your false assumptions with rape, which is a horrific and scarring crime.

Not impressed | Oct 30, 2008 | Reply

I really don’t understand you.

You keep repeating that you think no woman deserves to be raped, but in the same paragraph you say that women need to take their responsibility and their part of the blame. So you feel they did deserve it?

Dancing != the promise of sex. There are many degrees of sexual behavior and stimulation. If someone exhibits one kind of sexual behavior it should NOT be assumed they want to go all the way. Ever.

It’s why victims of date rape or rape in a relationship hardly ever come forward. Because all they’ll hear is, you were in a relationship with the guy/girl, how can he/she rape you? But it happens, a lot. Just because you’ve consented to one type or time of sexual conduct, doesn’t mean you want anything and at every time.

You say you don’t want women to hide and cover themselves. But you do want them to stop dancing with strangers in a club, because who knows what might happen! Clubs would be a very boring place to be if that would happen.

Yes, most women are aware they need to be careful, a lot of them have learned it the hard way. But that doesn’t make it their fault, ever, not even partly. Because it’s the rapist who commits the crime, it’s the rapist that makes the decision to force themselves on someone.

I don’t go to clubs anymore, I’m afraid to go out by myself when it’s dark. I’m afraid of being alone in a place with one or several men and will run out. It’s no way to live and I wouldn’t wish that level of vigilance and fear onto anyone.

You want to know why some people feel your blog post was dangerous? There are people out there that will get the validation of their (intended) actions from posts as these. They’ll read it and think, “gee I guess I’m not that bad after all, everyone is thinking it”

Read this http://tinyurl.com/48h4cc for some clarification on my final point. I know a few friends of mine have realized how enabling their behavior was after reading that article.

Daisy | Oct 31, 2008 | Reply

“Wow… all of this simply because I had an opinion on a touchy subject that was different from other people?”

No, your header is how NOT to get a deserved rape, meaning there is rape out there that may be deserved. Like he only hits me when I deserve it?

So she was a tease, so she turned you down, what a bitch, take a cold shower, and get over it. This whole piece is about you and your ego, yet you try to make it seem you are warning girls to keep their behaviour in check. Yes women have responsibility on how they project themselves into the world and need to be careful, protect themselves. But she was teasing you, what she may consider to be a safe public environment, maybe with her friends there for protection.
Again, get your ego in check, take responsibly for your own actions, have some self control.

noa | Oct 31, 2008 | Reply

Awwww, Aaron, I’m so touched that you found my post funny. I must admit, though, you’ve really made me think twice about making fun of dudes who believe that raped women are stupid and bring rape upon themselves. I mean, this whole “it’s never justifiable to commit rape, a violent and traumatic crime, regardless of the actions taken by the raped person beforehand” thing was SO MISGUIDED on my part – as was the “women have the right to say ‘no’ at any point in a flirtatious or sexual exchange and to have their wishes respected” thing. I mean, WHAT WAS I (ALONG WITH THE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WHO WERE ALSO DISGUSTED BY YOUR ARTICLE AND PROCEEDED TO TELL YOU SO) THINKING, right? You must feel really violated, having people talk about you without your consent! Their filthy blog posts, all over your eyeballs. I can’t even imagine what you’re going through. So I wrote you a little apology. I just thought you should know.

Tiger Beatdown | Oct 31, 2008 | Reply

Plz to get a deserved murdering.
Kthxbai.

Evo | Oct 31, 2008 | Reply

First of all, your “argument” assumes that you and the other person agree that a behavior is what YOU think it is. You leave no room for the other person to have their own interpretation of events be as valid as your own.

Why is YOUR interpretation of events more valid then someone else’s?

Secondly, logically, regardless of how you may feel about someone else’s behavior, your interpretation is not a reasonble argument for forcing an unwanted action onto someone else.

Principles matter: what is true for one is true for all. Either everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect regardless how foolish their behavior, or you don’t either.

Do YOU deserve to be raped because I thought you wanted it? I saw you smile at me, youuuuuuu teeeeeeeeeeze!!!!! (Keep in mind I’m an old ugly man, and weigh 700 pounds.)

Amazingly enough, I have the feeling that you are not a terrible person, just someone who didn’t think through this particular problem enough.

m Andrea | Oct 31, 2008 | Reply

you’re still not getting it.

Most rape victims are attacked by someone they know, in their own homes or the home of a friend. Only 25% or less are “stranger rapes” of the sort you propose. While it’s understandable that someone who leaves their car window unrolled in a bad neighbourhood is going to get their stereo jacked, the responsibility for the theft still lies with the thief. The equivalent analogy for rape is not “dancing suggestively,” it’s being born a woman.

(Yes, men get raped too. Most often, their attackers are other men. Again, it’s not the behaviour of the victim, it’s the actions of the criminal.)

sigh | Oct 31, 2008 | Reply

You insist that no woman deserves to be raped and then whine because people dare to blame a man and only a man when he rapes a woman? Oh my God, how dare we hold criminals accountable for their actions!

Aaron, right now in Somalia, women are stoned to death if someone rapes them. Right now in the Middle East, women are forced to cover themselves completely lest their sinful bodies tempt good men. Your attitudes – that women bring rape on themselves and that women should only be sexy around you if they’re going to fuck you – are the thin end of that wedge. Attitudes like yours are the reason there are rapists walking the streets right now, convinced that what they did was justified and prepared to rape again.

And your examples are bogus. Lung cancer doesn’t consciously decide to strike someone. A bad neighbourhood wouldn’t rob or kill you – one of its residents would make that decision. And the people there who make it an unsafe place to live have no right to keep everyone else living in fear.

Here’s a better example. If you cross the street without looking, and someone guns the engine and hits you on purpose because the traffic light was green for him and red for you…

…which one of you decided to act out his rage at a minor annoyance by severely damaging another human being?

Cyberwulf | Nov 1, 2008 | Reply

If some woman asks me to dance with her and starts rubbing herself against me. I’ll slap the slut silly. She should ask me first! Maybe I don’t want too? Wonder what she would do if I asked her to dance and started rubbing myself on her? Teasing is slutty…

R.Talbot | Nov 1, 2008 | Reply

By the way. I think she hit on a gentleman… Cheers…

R.Talbot | Nov 1, 2008 | Reply

Let me see if I can help decipher his meaning.

I do not believe that Aaron believes women DESERVED to be raped in any circumstance. I think he is merely suggesting that a woman’s behavior and actions can give men the wrong idea.

If I was in Aaron’s situation, I would also think that by her dancing, grinding and being overly flirtatious as a sign that either she:

* is interested in me, for a relationship
* she might want a one night stand
* she is teasing me to boost her own ego

Nowhere in my mind would I be thinking “hey this attractive woman is grinding against my crotch, she definitely wants nothing from me, she just wants to dance!”.

Be honest guys, how many women approach men. In my lifetime of dating, I have done the approaching 99.9% of the time. (+ .1 for statistical anomalies). Girls say they do, but the vast majority don’t. Apparently feminism hasn’t hit the dating scene in full force.

I guess my question to the ladies who disagree is:
“If a girl is behaving this way, and being overly flirtatious, how should men see (and act) towards this?”

Now I promise the ladies, your answer will most likely not change how I think, it is there to help men understand (not adapt to) your way of thinking. I am not trying to be cruel, I am saying it goes against our wiring (at least mine).

I find it truly amusing that you chastise men for not seeing your perspective, while not even attempting to see the world through our eyes.

I truly respect Aaron, he did the gentlemanly thing. He saw, in his mind, that she was doing nothing more than teasing him and simply walked away. This is the appropriate behavior for REAL men.

In my humble opinion, I see her doing this as nothing more than boosting her ego. She was testing him to see if he got excited, and when he did, that was her validation. If she just wanted to dance, she would have maintained her distance and casually danced with him. She didn’t, she gave him a free lap dance (minus the lap).

I might have been a little more cruel about it though. I would have walked away when she wasn’t looking and leave her shaking her ass on the dance floor by herself. Maybe even try to dance with another girl (minus the grinding) to stick it to her.

Trust me, the majority of women are not stupid. Most know exactly what it takes to get are blood pumping and excited. She was clearly doing this to boost her own ego.

Over my years of dating women and interacting with them, I have found one constant. Watch her behavior, not her words. If her body says “I’m flirting with you” and her mouth says “don’t even try it”. Just walk away, she is conflicted. Basically if her actions and mouth don’t sync up, she is playing games with you.

Good job Aaron for just walking away. Women can’t even contemplate that you are trying to help them. Acting promiscuous towards men without any actual POSITIVE intentions (dating, dinner, sex, marriage, coffee, whatever) can have dire consequences if a less than savory man misinterprets her dancing (i.e lap dance). Granted in an idealist world this wouldn’t happen, but it does. And not facing that reality can be damaging.

SomePoster | Nov 3, 2008 | Reply

SomePoster, there are many reasons why a woman would choose to dance sexily or flirt with a man. Only one of them translates to ‘I want your cock’. The best thing for ‘men’ like you and Aaron to do would be to ditch your seething resentment of women who dare to be sexy around you but refuse to drop their drawers and lean over so you can get your dick wet. You can also stop acting like Aaron’s some sort of hero for managing not to rape women.

My god you guys are disgusting pigs.

Cyberwulf | Nov 4, 2008 | Reply

CyberWulf,

What are the reasons women dance provocatively around men? Please do tell.

When a girl is flirting or dancing in a provocative manner, I don’t automatically go to “She wants my cock”. I just take it as she “might” be interested in me. I watch her actions and what she says to determine her level of interest, then act on it. Either by trying to talk with her or simply walking away.

The fact of the matter is, the dancing woman was USING Aaron. She was dancing with him with absolutely no regard for what he might be thinking or feeling.

I don’t resent women at all. By agreeing with Aaron and disagreeing with you, somehow in your warped mind that translates to “I hate women”.

My role as a man is not to put women in their place. In fact, I am typically attracted to smart and independent women. If a woman wants to stay at home and raise kids or join the work force, she can. I have no reason to keep her down in any way.

I don’t expect a woman to drop her skirt (or panties, pants, whatever) when a woman is sexually dancing with me.

There are many ways Aaron COULD have acted. He could have said something mean to her, pushed her, attacked her, etc… You are only looking at the extremes. Like if he didn’t walk away, he would have raped her. But he didn’t, he just walked away. The action REAL men take. Any man that would hit, push, slap or rape a woman in this (or any) situation is NOT a man and should be put in jail for any crime he committed.

Also, I am very picky in who I associate with. The fact that if this woman walked up to me, and rammed her ass into my groin, I would more than likely disregard her as girlfriend material. Not really the kind of girl I want to bring home to mom.

Your assumption that I am not a real man is laughable. I have never committed a violent crime (or any crime for that matter) in my life and live a rather “down to earth” and “live and let live” life. I don’t need to be congratulated that I have NEVER attacked a woman in my life. Real men respect respectable woman and stand clear of other women.

The fact that woman DESERVE respect is also laughable. I respect men and women who EARN it. While there are women that I don’t respect (due to their behavior), I don’t think they should be attacked and raped.

The fact of the matter is Aaron WAS trying to show women what goes on in a man’s head when woman are acting sexually around them.

I don’t approve of rape in any way, shape or form. A woman walking down the street in a tight dress isn’t asking for it. There is NO excuse for rape and any man or woman that commits it should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

SomePoster | Nov 4, 2008 | Reply

Cyberwulf,

Also you didn’t even try to have a meaningful discussion about this, you just attacked me. So in an effort to have a more meaningful discussion about this, I direct you to my previous question you failed to answer.

“If a girl is behaving this way, and being overly flirtatious, how should men see (and act) towards this?”

Instead of just calling Aaron and I pigs, you might want to try and UNDERSTAND where we are coming from.

SomePoster | Nov 4, 2008 | Reply

SomePoster,

I’ve already tried to explain in my post in the beginning of the thread.

There are many different kinds of sexual behavior. Just because someone is feeling attracted to you and maybe wants to dance (suggestively) with you, doesn’t mean he or she wants to take the next step.

Just because someone kisses you, doesn’t mean they want to move on to bed. Hell, even if a girl does sleep with you, doesn’t mean that regardless of time and place they’ll always sleep with you again. It means they might be attracted to you, and that they want to have one kind of physical (or sexual) contact with you at one point in time.

If I’m being flirtatious and dancing with a guy (which I never do because I am fortunate to have found the love of life) it means one thing: “I want to dance with this guy, I think I might be attracted to him, I’m having a good time and who knows, maybe he’ll give me his phone number and we can go out on a date”

Consent or initiation of one kind of physical or sexual contact does not mean someone wants to have all kinds of sexual contact!

Daisy | Nov 5, 2008 | Reply

diasy,

Instead of just being patronizing why don’t you actually address some of the points someposter made.

Beste | Nov 5, 2008 | Reply

Beste,

It wasnt meant to be patronizing, I think I adressed his/her points. The qustion was:

“If a girl is behaving this way, and being overly flirtatious, how should men see (and act) towards this?”

And I answered that they should see if it as one kind of sexual behavior without giving consent to any other ’steps’

Daisy | Nov 6, 2008 | Reply

Being able to emotionally detach one’s self from an issue and look at it analytically is such a wonderful ability. Unfortunately, it also seems to be one that the majority of commentators here do not possess, or at least are unwilling to utilize.

If I wish my home not to be violated by intruders, I would do well to fastly secure all points of entrance into my home. If I do not do so, and my home is violated and my property stolen, I do not bear responsibility to the acts of trespass and theft in themselves – those actions are solely due to the choices of the thief or thieves. Given, however, that I’d rather not be burglarized at all than be burglarized and later worry about where the blame lies, I take whatever preventative measures I deem fit and reasonable to prevent such occurance in the first place.

Now, I know I’ve already ruffled some female feathers by using an analogy which compares bodily integrity with the integrity of property, and for that I do apologize. The intent is not to insult, but rather to illustrate a logical relationship: this article is not about the assignment of blame, but merely an advisement regarding a method of securing your premises – that is to say, your bodies.

Saying that Aaron here advocates for, apologizes for, enabler of, excuses, condones, or blames the victim for rape is *logically* no different than saying a locksmith giving free advice on the best type of locks is an advocate, apologist, enabler, etc. of burglary. The only difference between the two is *emotional* and hence irrelevant.

Rational Reader | Nov 12, 2008 | Reply

The problem, rational reader, is not with all these hysterical women who need you to mansplain it to them. Let’s stick with your housebreaking analogy. If you are burgled, no one will use the fact that you left a window unlocked, or the curtains open so everyone could see your valuables, as an excuse to let the burglars off the hook. No one will say ‘What did you expect burglars to think, only ‘This guy wants to gimmee his stuff!” No one will accuse you of making the whole thing up for attention, or to slander a good man who just made a mistake. No one will accuse you of just having ‘morning after regret’ – you probably told the burglars they could help themselves and now that you’re sober you’re ‘crying burglary’ and hurting real crime victims by wasting police time.

But that happens to rape victims all the time. Insisting that it’s up to rape victims to keep from getting raped lets rapists off the hook. Nowhere in two posts of victim blaming does Aaron address what rapists and those who shield and encourage them can do to prevent rape.

Cyberwulf | Nov 13, 2008 | Reply

Cyberwulf, why should Aaron be required to address that?

Going back to my analogy, you’re requiring the locksmith to also be involved with law enforcement, or community outreach programs to potential burglars and their enablers, or something along those lines.

That doesn’t make sense. Of course, anyone who wants to get involved in those things should – it would benefit everyone greatly. But not being involved in those things in no way mitigates the goodness of providing locks (or advice on how to avoid rape).

And if, as you state (but do not demonstrate), victims of rape are blamed for their misfortune “all the time,” still this has no bearing on Aaron’s article. He didn’t say “It’s your fault that you got raped,” he said “Here’s a few things to keep in mind that might help you avoid getting raped.” That some might be unable to discern between the two is not due to Aaron here being some sort of rape-enthusiast, but merely due to some readers allowing emotion (or perhaps ideology or agenda) to muck up their ability to comprehend what they’re reading.

Rational Reader | Nov 13, 2008 | Reply

This “rebuttal” is ludicrous.

Daisy kind of gets to a real good point. What’s the next step in this rationalization? It’s that if a woman sleeps with a man then that man later rapes her she is partly responsible for that rape because she never should have slept with him in the 1st place. She was tempting fate by having sex with him the 1st time. Right?

Now how many of you apologists agree with that statement?

Eddy | Nov 16, 2008 | Reply

Great article man.

So sad the small-minded can’t get over their own insecurities and take it for what it is.

Eso | Dec 2, 2008 | Reply

Cyberwulf,

I cannot better express the intention this article (and rebuttal) was meant to convey, but Rational Reader has. Your comments here are running you the risk of being labled a “Feminazi”, although personally I dislike the term. (I also don’t care for “Manslination”)

—————
If I wish my home not to be violated by intruders, I would do well to fastly secure all points of entrance into my home. If I do not do so, and my home is violated and my property stolen, I do not bear responsibility to the acts of trespass and theft in themselves – those actions are solely due to the choices of the thief or thieves. Given, however, that I’d rather not be burglarized at all than be burglarized and later worry about where the blame lies, I take whatever preventative measures I deem fit and reasonable to prevent such occurance in the first place.
——–

What in this rather concise summation of the point at hand can you not understand? It is a purely logical argument and 100% right. Let me know, this thread is not dead yet…

Landonius | Dec 6, 2008 | Reply

Uh, out of curiosity, which part of this was actually supposed to clarify your position against rape? Because, to be quite honest, you fell short.

Dancing does not equal “These are my ovaries, please come inside”

RagDoll | Jan 14, 2009 | Reply

appreciate the info guys, thanks

football uk fan | Mar 2, 2009 | Reply

Reading the comments we can easily see that one group cant understand the point of view of the other group and vice versa. Personally I am with Aaron and I cant understand the point of view of the others. They cant understand Aaron’s. Conclusion: We both need to learn to live with each other.

Since I am with Aaron, I feel I should say a few words of encouragement to him. Aaron, you have put your thoughts nicely. I have never experienced what you have experienced. But I can totally relate to it. Dont care if others dont get you. Take consolation from the fact that the world is not yet controlled by feminazis. Jurors and prosecutors still got their thinking powers intact. So I dont think many guys will get punished harshly for a matter with so much grey areas in near future. Also keep this in mind. Women have only as much power as men give them. Nature gave men more power and every society in this world have their rules, no matter how different they are from each other, only becoz the MEN in that society decided those rules should be there. So we men dont need to get panick attacks thinking about the feminazis. All they can do is post their meaningless drivel online. But the people who really matter will always be wise thinking ones.

IndianGuy | Mar 16, 2009 | Reply

Excellent site and interesting posts. I will definitely bookmark this site.

Rice | Apr 5, 2009 | Reply

Problems like this can occur ONLY in a highly individualistic society in which people customarily perceive and exploit others as things — with regard not only to sex but also economic life, politics, etc. The question I ask is: how can we live in such a society in such a way that we protect ourselves from exploitation and abuse and also contribute to the transformation of the society into a caring community? One rule that I think helps is always to concentrate first on building friendship. Before even considering the self-exposure inherent in sexual relations, it makes sense to know the other person well enough not to need fear that he or she will view and treat you as a thing.

Stephen Shenfield | Apr 11, 2009 | Reply

“Rational Reader” and Aaron need only look at IndianGuy’s comment of agreement to understand why people are acting like they’re misogynistic caveman rape apologists.

This is what you’ve aligned yourself with, Aaron. This is the side you’ve chosen.

Alexandra Erin | Apr 12, 2009 | Reply

Aaron,

Sexist rape-culture morons like you are the reason that strip clubs have to hire 300 lb men as bouncers!

Are you not aware that women are human beings with autonomy – they are not satellites orbiting around your penis?

If you do not know that, consider yourself informed!

You are a true douchebag, and an embarrassment to the entire male gender!

If you cannot control your penis and testes, may I suggest amputation?

Gregory A. Butler | Apr 19, 2009 | Reply

Rational Reader and IndianGuy – see my advice to Aaron, it applies to you too, and to all rape apologists!

You are an embarrassment to my gender – and, on behalf of the 3 billion men on planet Earth, I am asking you to leave the male gender, as soon as possible (it only takes a sharp pair of scissors – in your cases, a very SMALL pair of scissors, or perhaps even toenail clippers, should get the job done!)

Gregory A. Butler | Apr 19, 2009 | Reply

One other point.

Aaron – I’ve been in situations on occasion where I’ve had hot women in skimpy clothing rubbing over me in a seductive way.

And, as it happened, in some of these situations, those women didn’t want to have sex with me.

Know what I did?

Enjoyed the hell out of the opportunity to rub on a beautiful young lady’s body for as long as it lasted.

Walked away feeling refreshed and energized.

Went home and masturbated.

And was able to use the experience as material for j.o. fantasies from then on.

That’s how a REAL MAN deals with being sexually stimulated by a woman who doesn’t want to have sex.

REAL MEN DON’T RAPE.

They have self control.

Are we clear here, or do you need me to draw a diagram for you?

Gregory A. Butler | Apr 19, 2009 | Reply

I am a fan of neither rape apologists, nor people who believe that women need to keep themselves from being raped but mostly I am not a fan of people who try to make points while using inaccurate grammar.

While you were at the club your friends and you were shocked. To use the first person, “my friends and I were shocked.”

An easy rule is to think how you would say the sentence if you were simply speaking about yourself. You would say, “I was shocked” not “me was shocked.”

Please be sure the next time you share your ideas about what women should and should not be doing you are grammatically correct.

Thank you.

GrammarGirl | May 21, 2009 | Reply

Mr. Taylor,

Thank you for sharing your views. I must say that my absolute favorite thing about your blog is how you do not let the facts get in the way of your opinion.

I’m sorry, but as a victim of rape, you sure do remind me of the man who attacked me. Have you ever considered forcing yourself upon someone? It sure seems that there have been instances when you could have done so, and thought that the girl entirely deserved it. If I were you, I might consult a professional to discuss theses urges, or perhaps commit myself, as to prevent dangers to others.

It is people like YOU that make getting over sexual assault a difficult process. Victims of such tend to blame themselves and this just adds fuel to those thoughts. According to you, I entirely deserved what happened. I was friendly to the rapists, meaning I treated him like a human-being. Despite him holding me down, choking me, and bruising my body while I screamed for help, I should have just accepted it. That is sick. Think before you speak.

This just confirms the fact that the anonymity of the internet lures out the scumbags.

Thoroughly Disgusted,
Miss Quitter

Miss Quitter | May 21, 2009 | Reply

Aaron, as a woman who has been raped….(wait for it)…
I totally agree with you. Women in our culture have been socialized to embrace being a victim. It is almost as fulfilling as that ‘ego-stroking’ you referred to earlier. Just in a different way.
I don’t think I deserved to be raped, but you know what? I fully understand how and why it happened. I would go so far as to say that it was mostly my fault. (Here’s an analogy you can use if you care to):

If I happen upon some dynamite, and, being a fairly intelligent member of the species, KNOW that it is dangerous when exposed to flame, but start fiddling with the fuse in a rather pyro-maniacal sort of way, can I really blame the dynamite for the resulting explosion?

Women these days are so utterly confused it disgusts me. The above posters give rape ‘victims’(if we MUST use that word) a bad name. Kudos to you for attempting to straighten them out.

Mary Madden | May 22, 2009 | Reply

Aaron,

I am a victim of a sexual assault. And I find that I completely agree with you.

Our society is completely over-sexed, to the point that some women, as you said in your article, find it fun to go out and tease men at a bar or a club. Music, television, movies, magazines- the media in general, project an image that for men to want women they need to dress in a certain way and act just so for men to want them. A woman is then shocked when, after dressing for sex and teasing men, she is assaulted. Perhaps we, as a collective society, need to re-address what we find acceptable and “fun” in society?

This being said, I think anyone who actually read the article knows you don’t agree with rapists, and that you don’t condone rape. I agree that a woman has the right to say no at any point, but I also think women shouldn’t be teasing men and expecting every single person to be good and accept no for an answer.

The reality is, 1 of 5 women will experience a sexual assault in their lifetime. Not every woman in the world, but a significant portion of them will face rape or molestation.

I think that your post was more a “be careful and consider your actions” than a rant condoning rapists.

Keep writing, it’s insightful and funny as hell.

-L

L | May 23, 2009 | Reply

Wow alot of people bash this guy probably because they don’t read the entire article…or don’t even read it at all. What he is saying makes perfect sense! In no way is he suggesting that women should be controlled, enslaved, or used as sex objects. He is infact warning women to not display themselves as sex objects. What he was saying about the woman he describes is that she was teasing him with sexual actions that both parties view differently. For her, she just does it for fun. For him, he interprets it as the woman likes him and enjoys his company (Which is a completely natural interpretation! not some sick rapist way of thinking). When she rejects his kiss he will obviously get anoyed because of the misleading scenario. She acted like she wanted him yet she deceived him. Most men would just head back to the bar and ignore the situation but SOME as he states may have a few problems and take out their anger on the woman with rape. So, basically he has put up a big warning sign saying that while acting like a sex object may be fun for women, some men may get the wrong idea and will think you are one instead of acting as one. Now, I know tons of women would probably say that the woman in his scenario was just having some innocent fun…but lets face it, our society DISPLAYS women as sex objects. The ads the media sprays at us show women dressed in…well not clothes…closer to pieces of shredded cloth! This encourages young women like my daughter to dress this way, a way that CLEARLY lances out into any average male mind saying “LOOK AT MY EXPOSED PRIVATE PARTS, I AM SEXY ARN’t I?” Society has brainwashed women of mostly a young age to think that in order to find love they most submit to men and dress to look like a prostitute. If society does not change the way it influences our young ones then in the near future it might be common place to be a victim of sexual assualt.

Larz | Jun 28, 2009 | Reply

I think what many posters are forgetting is that the world is not a figurative black and white. It’s a very hazy shade of gray.

Mr. Gerard A. Butler,

Aaron agrees with you. Real men with self control DO NOT rape women. They respect a woman’s words when she says no, just like he did.

What Aaron is pointing out is that SOME men do NOT have this self control. And if this flirtatious Lady had been rubbing herself on one of THOSE men, instead of himself, she may have been in serious trouble.

The MAIN POINT is that no lady (or man) can tell in advance whether the person you interacting with has or does NOT have the self-control.

So when in a situation like a club, or anywhere, you must keep in mind that not everyone THINKS the same way you do. Never ASSUME that you are being understood or listened to. Which is why you must be aware of what is happening and how it can affect you.

Mockingbird | Mar 19, 2010 | Reply

My One-Time Rebuttal to My “Deserved Rape” Article: Idealism vs. Reality

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